• burningdemons
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Yorkville vs. BassBoss
Thank you. That explains a tremendous amount. It seems like this is something that one would have to take multiple classes on to understand. A thorough explanation is always helpful because it puts multiple things together adding coherency. I did not know that compression loss would account for so much. That's quite a bit of output that will be lost. It will be almost half as loud as my graph would be.

Compared to a single ZV28 it should beat it overall but it will sound a little more thumpy cause its highest sensitivity is up near the LS801's. Guess it was accurately named. Still a better option than TH118's, I've heard them in pairs and the DBH218 easily destroys them. It'd be 2.5-3 to equal the DBH218.

The TH221 is a monster. Seems like a good choice if you were going to install them. I laughed when you said it'd take a forklift cause it actually would. That beast is almost 500 pounds and not okay for mobile work. The DBH218 is fine for school gyms and big events cause you can just roll them in. And for steps it just requires 2 people to lift it up.

I've heard both but only used the DBH218 extensively. It is a monster, it's just the TH221 is a bigger monster. I have not heard another dual 18/21 come close to their output. Even with adding in 6-9db loss it'll still be louder than a pair of ZV28's in some frequencies. It comes at a price though and why pay the price if you can get it better for cheaper? The ZV28's seem to be that option. I will just have to weigh my options for which one comes in better for my planned budget compared to just upgrading to LS1208's for more low end and slightly more SPL. Right now I'm just working with a pair of LS808's and I sold my other pair. I'm trying to sell this pair and then purchase a monster sub after that can do what 4 could have done in just a dual 18 cab or single 18/21 cab. It took 4 LS808's to reach SPL's that worked with the ZX5's and it would take probably 5 or 6 of them before the ZX5's gave out and became overwhelmed. But the LS808 sounds like a boom box. The average person doesn't know the difference but artists do and they typically have little knowledge of PA systems so pleasing them can be tricky since they don't really count in cost, size, or anything. They just expect monstrous sound and meeting their demand means reoccurring gigs, more money, and a more friendly environment.
Yorkville vs. BassBoss
Djonyx wrote: 2.83v at 4 ohm is 2 watt, should have used 2.00v. DBH218 has a switch either 2 or 4 ohm load.

I didn't pay attention to what the ohm load was on their sheets. You're probably correct but in either case, the DBH218 can take 3,600 continuous wattage. So even if it was a 2 ohm load, that graph should look similar to its actual performance in the real world. Its peak is a massive 14,400 watts so it should be able to take 4,000 continuous. And it'll take 2,000 with ease. So if it was done in a 4 ohm load you just double the wattage I wrote and quadruple if it was done in a 2 ohm. The only that would remain to be corrected is the extra 3-4db that would not be there.

Strangely the TH221 takes less wattage than the DBH but it doesn't matter that much. Once you get past a thousand watts, it'll take 5-10 times that much power before you start getting noticeable increases in SPL. So the differences between a 2 ohm, 4 ohm, or 8 ohm load won't matter significantly in the real world.
Yorkville vs. BassBoss
Oops. Not more, slightly less. I meant the ZV28's will have slightly more displacement at the lower hz but overall the DBH218 will have more displacement because it is significantly more efficient at higher hz. I need to slow down, my brain and keyboard need to work together better. The TH221 will have way more displacement than the DBH218 or 2 ZV28's though, correct?
Yorkville vs. BassBoss
Ah. That makes more sense. Lower hz means the woofer reproduces it at a slower rate? Or just the woofer moves slower to reproduce it, therefore more air is being displaced. I believe the 'kick' in the chest frequency is between 50-80hz, so the Yorkville's will produce more of that kind of thump by a significant amount. Different kinds of air displacement have different effects. Makes sense now. But overall the ZV28's are the best in that regard.

I did some math on the DBH218, this is the graph I came up with. I have added it to yours.

Danley Compared to 6 York Ls801 and 2 ZV28.png 

http://imageshack.com/a/img923/1593/lp0Ecr.png

Now, the DBH218 outputs as much as 2 ZV28's and it gets almost as loud as 6 LS801P's. Since the powered DBH218 would cost as much as 2 ZV28's, while weighing and being less cubic feet, would it not be the sole box the could keep up with the ZX5's? That was only at 1000 watts too. It can take 4000 but that will only add 4 more decibels (if that, given compression loss).

I believe my math is correct given that the Danley response graph is 93 db @ 20 hz with 1 watt (2.83V) and 1 meter in 1/2 space, 105 @ 30hz, 112 @ 40hz, and 115 @ 70hz. I tried to match the graph more closely to the one provided by Danley and it crescendos in the same peaks as the Yorkvilles. The air displacement of this single box will be more than 2 ZV28's and it will within barely noticeable SPL output as 6 Yorkville LS801P's. This is true unless Danley forged their numbers. This is, of course, a horn loaded enclosure. The path might have added weight but it is truly remarkable that it takes 4-6 of some dual 18" enclosures to equal the same SPL and displacement. Then you have the TH221 which has 103-105 db @ 20hz with 1 watt (2.83V) and 1 meter in 1/2 space. 110 @ 30hz with 1 watt (2.83V) and 1 meter... Then it fluctuates between 108-110 until 70hz where it is a massive 116, just like the DBH218. This, of course, removes the necessity for multiple cords and multiple trips and more felicitous usage of space. But twice as loud is 10db more and the TH221 would be twice as loud at 20hz and about 50% more loud at 30hz.

So my only question left is which would you suggest for my pair of ZX5's? The ZV28's? The DBH218? Or the TH221? The latter seems to have the most full sound, most displacement, but it's not the loudest for the least money. I believe the DBH218 is. A pair of LS1208's wouldn't be the worst choice either I guess. 105@70hz,105@60,105@50,104@45, and 101@40. Add 6db for a pair of them and that's 111@70, 111@60, 111@50, 110@45, and 107@40. You can buy 4 (you need to double the amount of speakers to add 6db I believe) and an amp for less than the ZV28 pair, 6 LS801P's, DBH218, or TH221.. So that's 117@70, 117@60, 116@45, and 113@40. That beats all of these other boxes mentioned but I don't know about under 40hz cause I don't have the graph. I presume it would drop off below 30 but still leave a respectable sensitivity at 30 that would compete or beat them for the price.. But, as you said, that's more cabs and more weight.

You have given me a great deal to think about. I appreciate all the information you have provided. I'm still curious as to which to go with though for my tops in a mobile setup (for school dances with 1000 people). I want to turn those high schoolers stomachs with bass they have never felt, you know? I want them to ask to have it turned down so I know I have the headroom to run them at full throttle if I wanted to.

Thanks again for your thorough response, I'm really eager to start building my own boxes now and see what sensitivities I could reach by capitalizing on greater efficiency and greater manipulation of physics to increase output in the areas I am curious of recreating.
Yorkville vs. BassBoss
Ah, I realized I made a few mistakes in pricing by lopping the powered in the with passive. The powered LS series is way more expensive. It would be 4 of the powered to 7 of the passive.. I don't understand why the LS801P's cost almost double but I guess it is Yorkvilles decision. I just don't believe the amp + processing deserves that much of an increase in price.

But anyway, I believe my question was still easy to interpret. For price to performance, which is the best choice?

You can get 2 LS1208's for 1 SSP118 and an amp to power them. Same with 4 LS1208's and the higher up models.

But I'm truly just looking for the most cost effective way that can keep up with the ZXA5's with a preference on just having 1 or 2 boxes instead of several. So far, with all my research, the LS1208's are the best price to performance ratio. I am not sure if there is another option. I did see your graphs on the SRX828SP but I've heard that sub in person and it cannot keep up with the ZXA5's. Maybe it is hopeless but I pray it isn't.. I will just continue my search for an answer.

Also, I heard you guys use the same B&C woofers as Danley? Does this mean that you could eventually build a horn loaded sub with a large path to compete and/or beat them for less money? Also if one were to put B&C woofers into a Yorkville LS808, say the 18TBX100, would that increase performance down low? I only ask because I could find empty boxes for cheaper and load them up. I have seen that the 18TBX100 has a 96db +/- 3dB from 30-100hz. Using a rear-horn load with a 6ft pass, wouldn't that increase the output down low? Just curious. If you wish to not answer that is fine. I'm just extremely curious in building/modifying speakers. But currently I'm just trying to find a single, dual, or pair of boxes that can keep up with the ZXA5's for the lowest possible price.

Thanks again!
SSP118 Powered Subwoofer VS the JBL SRX828 Sub?
If you don't mind my asking, what were the settings for the SRX828SP? Did you run it flat? Did you use the ethernet DSP? If you did not run it flat, what settings did you use?
Yorkville vs. BassBoss
I have a few questions, I was doing some of the math based on previous response graphs provided on this forum and was curious about these matchups:

6 LS808/LS801P vs. 2 ZV18, 1 ZV28, 2SSP118, 1 SSP218
4 LS1208 vs. 2 ZV18, 1 ZV28, 2SSP118, 1 SSP218

All of these are roughly the same price. But when added up in multiples the extension and SPL output increases for the LS side (except for the LS1004). The LS1208 and LS808 have 10ft and 6ft paths respectively. So I understand that multiples of them will begin to perform much better.

I have not read any literature about which kind of speakers the ZV and SSP series are. As you well know, finding good bass is difficult. I have 2 ZXA5's and a pair of the passive versions. These speakers are almost impossible to match with one box because they are extremely loud, same with the QRX series but I don't like the heavy nature of them.

Anyway, I've matched up a few subs at local places and nothing EV, QSC, Yamaha, JBL, or Cerwin Vega can adequately compete with by just using 1 box. Not even dual boxes. By my math you would need 4 LS801p's to get enough loud end for 2 ZXA5's.

I have looked into Danley and JTR spectrum but they don't offer anything the LS1208's can't already do in multiples of 4 (equal or less price). The Danley DBH218 seems to be the cream of the crop but it is pushing $8000 for the powered version.

Now I have seen the specs of the DBH218/TH221 and their response graphs and they beat out 2 ZV28's down low. But they cost more. You'd need powersoft K series amps or the powered version, which, in either case, makes it supremely less cost effective compared to Yorkville alternatives. Your company seems like the mid level but I am still wondering about cost effectiveness.

So I will relay what I have discovered:

6 LS808/LS801P vs. 2 ZV18, 1 ZV28, 2SSP118, 1 SSP218
I am just trying to make sure my math is correct that 6 LS808/LS801P's would equal or be lower than the output of the others you sell (depending on frequency, the 808/801 kill at 60-90hz and there is no denying that but it would also require EQing that out to make it sound more flat, given that your speakers generally have a flat response this is not a problem). Your response graphs provide this information and anywhere from 4-6 LS808/801 would equal the output, depending on frequency, of 2 ZV18, 1 ZV28, 2 SSP118, 1 SSP218.

4 LS1208 vs. 2 ZV18, 1 ZV28, 2SSP118, 1 SSP218
These 4 LS1208's would, by my calculations, beat each of your subwoofers in all hz. But they require some decent power and that must be factored in. But since I already have that (these don't require as much power as the DBH218 or TH221), it's not an issue. I used the response graphs from another forum in 1/2 space, which is similar to what you have provided. I used the sensitivity and mapped out the graph for applied power. 4 LS1208's will put out, by my math, the equivalent of 3 LS2100p's. Which, in turn, scaling in addition for multiple cabinets using your graphs, would equal more performance than 2 ZV18, 1 ZV28, 2 SSP118, or 1 SSP218 in almost every single hz range.

I know this is a decent amount of information but I presume it is correct. Yorkville has been the king of subwoofers for most audio applications. They have used B&C and now they use some pretty beefy neodymium woofers. Yet it still requires multiples to equal the ZXA5's (112 sensitivity for the horn on those beasts and they have the EV line array DVX3150 woofer in them too). So, I was curious, for my mobile application, which subwoofers would you recommend pairing with the ZXA5's for a mobile application? 

I typically do school dances and prefer passive cause it is less cords and less trouble with the xover and processing in the way I want it to sound. But all I want is a subwoofer that can keep up with a pair of these speakers AND play well down low. I want to keep the sound as natural as possible but also rattle the chests, shake down photos from the walls, for a normal sized gym AND keep up with the ZXA5's.

I am new to your line of speakers and I know that 4 LS1208's will keep up easily and do what I require of them but I was wondering if it could be done for cheaper with the products you sell. Also, I am curious if the ZV28 would be safe/usable on a normal 120 15A. Since there is not, typically, 20A outlets at my gigs. I have multiple 15A available though, which is why passive might end up working better cause 2 bridged QSC 2450's would work for the LS1208's and be able to allow a ZXA5/lights on top of their power draw.

Thank you.


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