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burningdemons

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Reply with quote  #1 
I have a few questions, I was doing some of the math based on previous response graphs provided on this forum and was curious about these matchups:

6 LS808/LS801P vs. 2 ZV18, 1 ZV28, 2SSP118, 1 SSP218
4 LS1208 vs. 2 ZV18, 1 ZV28, 2SSP118, 1 SSP218

All of these are roughly the same price. But when added up in multiples the extension and SPL output increases for the LS side (except for the LS1004). The LS1208 and LS808 have 10ft and 6ft paths respectively. So I understand that multiples of them will begin to perform much better.

I have not read any literature about which kind of speakers the ZV and SSP series are. As you well know, finding good bass is difficult. I have 2 ZXA5's and a pair of the passive versions. These speakers are almost impossible to match with one box because they are extremely loud, same with the QRX series but I don't like the heavy nature of them.

Anyway, I've matched up a few subs at local places and nothing EV, QSC, Yamaha, JBL, or Cerwin Vega can adequately compete with by just using 1 box. Not even dual boxes. By my math you would need 4 LS801p's to get enough loud end for 2 ZXA5's.

I have looked into Danley and JTR spectrum but they don't offer anything the LS1208's can't already do in multiples of 4 (equal or less price). The Danley DBH218 seems to be the cream of the crop but it is pushing $8000 for the powered version.

Now I have seen the specs of the DBH218/TH221 and their response graphs and they beat out 2 ZV28's down low. But they cost more. You'd need powersoft K series amps or the powered version, which, in either case, makes it supremely less cost effective compared to Yorkville alternatives. Your company seems like the mid level but I am still wondering about cost effectiveness.

So I will relay what I have discovered:

6 LS808/LS801P vs. 2 ZV18, 1 ZV28, 2SSP118, 1 SSP218
I am just trying to make sure my math is correct that 6 LS808/LS801P's would equal or be lower than the output of the others you sell (depending on frequency, the 808/801 kill at 60-90hz and there is no denying that but it would also require EQing that out to make it sound more flat, given that your speakers generally have a flat response this is not a problem). Your response graphs provide this information and anywhere from 4-6 LS808/801 would equal the output, depending on frequency, of 2 ZV18, 1 ZV28, 2 SSP118, 1 SSP218.

4 LS1208 vs. 2 ZV18, 1 ZV28, 2SSP118, 1 SSP218
These 4 LS1208's would, by my calculations, beat each of your subwoofers in all hz. But they require some decent power and that must be factored in. But since I already have that (these don't require as much power as the DBH218 or TH221), it's not an issue. I used the response graphs from another forum in 1/2 space, which is similar to what you have provided. I used the sensitivity and mapped out the graph for applied power. 4 LS1208's will put out, by my math, the equivalent of 3 LS2100p's. Which, in turn, scaling in addition for multiple cabinets using your graphs, would equal more performance than 2 ZV18, 1 ZV28, 2 SSP118, or 1 SSP218 in almost every single hz range.

I know this is a decent amount of information but I presume it is correct. Yorkville has been the king of subwoofers for most audio applications. They have used B&C and now they use some pretty beefy neodymium woofers. Yet it still requires multiples to equal the ZXA5's (112 sensitivity for the horn on those beasts and they have the EV line array DVX3150 woofer in them too). So, I was curious, for my mobile application, which subwoofers would you recommend pairing with the ZXA5's for a mobile application? 

I typically do school dances and prefer passive cause it is less cords and less trouble with the xover and processing in the way I want it to sound. But all I want is a subwoofer that can keep up with a pair of these speakers AND play well down low. I want to keep the sound as natural as possible but also rattle the chests, shake down photos from the walls, for a normal sized gym AND keep up with the ZXA5's.

I am new to your line of speakers and I know that 4 LS1208's will keep up easily and do what I require of them but I was wondering if it could be done for cheaper with the products you sell. Also, I am curious if the ZV28 would be safe/usable on a normal 120 15A. Since there is not, typically, 20A outlets at my gigs. I have multiple 15A available though, which is why passive might end up working better cause 2 bridged QSC 2450's would work for the LS1208's and be able to allow a ZXA5/lights on top of their power draw.

Thank you.


David Lee

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Reply with quote  #2 
Thanks for this excellent and detailed question! David Lee will create some comparison graphs and respond shortly.

We appreciate the time you spent researching this!
burningdemons

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Reply with quote  #3 
Ah, I realized I made a few mistakes in pricing by lopping the powered in the with passive. The powered LS series is way more expensive. It would be 4 of the powered to 7 of the passive.. I don't understand why the LS801P's cost almost double but I guess it is Yorkvilles decision. I just don't believe the amp + processing deserves that much of an increase in price.

But anyway, I believe my question was still easy to interpret. For price to performance, which is the best choice?

You can get 2 LS1208's for 1 SSP118 and an amp to power them. Same with 4 LS1208's and the higher up models.

But I'm truly just looking for the most cost effective way that can keep up with the ZXA5's with a preference on just having 1 or 2 boxes instead of several. So far, with all my research, the LS1208's are the best price to performance ratio. I am not sure if there is another option. I did see your graphs on the SRX828SP but I've heard that sub in person and it cannot keep up with the ZXA5's. Maybe it is hopeless but I pray it isn't.. I will just continue my search for an answer.

Also, I heard you guys use the same B&C woofers as Danley? Does this mean that you could eventually build a horn loaded sub with a large path to compete and/or beat them for less money? Also if one were to put B&C woofers into a Yorkville LS808, say the 18TBX100, would that increase performance down low? I only ask because I could find empty boxes for cheaper and load them up. I have seen that the 18TBX100 has a 96db +/- 3dB from 30-100hz. Using a rear-horn load with a 6ft pass, wouldn't that increase the output down low? Just curious. If you wish to not answer that is fine. I'm just extremely curious in building/modifying speakers. But currently I'm just trying to find a single, dual, or pair of boxes that can keep up with the ZXA5's for the lowest possible price.

Thanks again!
BASSBOSS Team

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Reply with quote  #4 
Hello again!

Thanks for the clarification! David Lee is working on your response, and we'll have that info for you soon.

Best from the BASSBOSS team!
David Lee

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Reply with quote  #5 
You've definitely been doing your homework! I haven't tested all the boxes you put into your comparisons so I can't draw conclusions about things for which I don't have comparable data. I can see from your comparisons that your highest priority, the most important metric in your comparisons, is price. It's essentially the starting point for the comparison. The second factor you're referencing seems to be output SPL, the third factor is frequency response, or depth. So it seems to me you're trying to translate these different product specifications into a relative value comparison. The next thing I believe you're looking for is a way to compare that value, in purchase dollars relative to output, against the amount/size/weight of the boxes you need to move around to do your gigs.  You want something that will deliver enough low-end to keep up with the tops you have.

A long time ago, when I was starting out designing systems and looking at specifications, I was constantly facing the same questions. You might call it the “bang for the buck conundrum”. Back in those days a lot of the bucks had to go to the amplifiers, so efficiency was a critical factor. That was where I first started my appreciation for horn-loaded systems. I've owned and sold many horn-loaded subs over the years, eventually getting involved in designing them. Back in those days I didn't have big system budgets so it was important that the gear we installed delivered good value. Good value isn't the same thing as inexpensive, which I found out through experience. It was hard to beat the apparent logic that a Cerwin Vega L36 was about $750.00 and loud as hell without a lot of power needed. It seemed like a good value. The trouble with the L36 and other boxes you've listed and tested is that they aren't really SUB woofers. They're sup-woofers, supplementary woofers. They're not really extending the response of your system below your tops, they're just making the bottom end of what your tops could do louder. They're loud without getting low.

Times change, music changes, expectations change, technologies evolve. The music that was popular back when the L36 was popular had nothing for bass, compared to what we have now. The amplifiers we had back then have nothing for power compared to what we have now. The drivers we had back then had nothing like the excursion and power handling capacities they have now. The audiences back then could be impressed by a bit of thump in the chest because they didn't have the more intense bass experiences we're all familiar with now.

Early in my career I had a hard time justifying the prices of some of the gear I came across. I still feel the same way but admittedly the dollar figures have gone up over the years. Point is, I would have had the same questions you have: What makes Box B worth so much more than Box Y?  And the truth is I would have had a hard time parting with $4,000.00 for one box when the same amount could get me 3 or 4 of something else. But there are very good reasons to get less for more, because you ultimately get more from less...

So how would I go about making the decision you're facing? As I said, I've been doing this for a long time and I've had to make these decisions in the past and right now I have to make these decisions every day in terms of designing some of the products you're considering. I'm constantly considering the relative value of every component and every design alternative. It's precisely because I came from a point of view similar to yours that I focus on and work so hard to maximize the value in the loudspeaker systems I design. I know I could build cheaper products. Other companies do. I do not believe I or anyone else could build products that offer better overall value.

Admittedly I have my priorities in a certain order. I have two equally important priorities at the top of my list. Reliability and sound quality. To me, for a system to be a great value it has to work hard and work all the time. In addition to that it has to sound great. These are the two things that are sacred and absolute because my reputation depends on how well these speakers represent themselves to people like you. As a DJ, your reputation, your competitive advantage, your growth and your success depends, to a significant extent, on the equipment you use. Better sound quality leads to better referrals and better business.

So how do you go about determining what's best for you? The first point is that this decision is yours, I can't know all there is to know about your wants needs and circumstances. I do have the information you provided in your question to work with, so I'll try to keep that in mind through the process.  Here's how I would make the decision.

First I have to pick my number one priority. In some cases my number one priority is driven by unpredictable external factors, such as how much power I can consistently count on having available at any given venue. In some cases my number one priority can be driven by internal factors, such as a preference for peak output SPL or a preference for extremely deep bass. In other cases the number one priority could be driven by one's desire to be able to set up all the equipment alone. And there's the ever-present cost factor.  

I tried to do the math to get an estimate of your budget. It looked to be about $4,000 initially, although six of the LS801P would be closer to $8,000.00 because they include amplification, so in an effort to compare relatively similar products I need to narrow the scope. BASSBOSS only sells powered speakers so comparing them to un-powered speakers is problematic. You can repeat this process for any combination of products, of course.

6 x LS801P vs 2 x ZV28 is a fair comparison dollar-to-dollar. Is it a fair comparison in other areas?

Weight
6 x LS801P = 824 lbs
2 x ZV28 = 440 lbs
Advantage ZV28 by 384 lbs. 46% weight savings

Cubic volume/size
6 x LS801P = 70.28 cubic feet
2 x ZV28 = 45.94 cubic feet
Advantage ZV28 by 24.33 cubic feet. 35% volume savings

These two factors indicate how hard you have to work rather than how well the speakers work. The cost in setup effort and time to transport nearly double the weight and a third more bulk can add up over time. Speaking of time, it will take more time to set up 3 times more speakers and wires before showtime and 3 times more speakers and wires to roll up and to load into the truck at the end of the night… While the venue operator fusses about looking at the clock. Not to mention a bigger truck. At least gas is cheap... for now.  Personally I want the load-out to be as easy and fast as possible. I also want the load-in to be as smooth as possible. These are things I consider as part of the overall value of a system. I would never prioritize them over knocking ceiling tiles out with the bass, but still, worth considering.

So, what about the really important stuff, the ceiling tiles, the photos on the walls?  What about the energy? That's the most appropriate word for it. Energy transfer is what shakes the ceiling tiles loose and knocks pictures off walls and rattles chests, right? You literally want to put energy into the room. Where's the energy? And how do you value it?  

This leads us to the next question of priorities: Deeper or louder? Which of the two do you think communicates a sense of quality? It's generally held to be true that deeper is interpreted as a sign of superior quality, particularly for subwoofers. By the same token, higher is perceived as a sign of quality for tweeters. A tweeter that gets extremely loud at one frequency but doesn't go very high is not seen (or rather heard) as a superior tweeter.  It would probably be considered annoying and in need of improvement, or replacement.  So deeper is, in my opinion, better than louder when it comes to the sound quality of subwoofers.

So, back to the question of where is the energy? Since we were comparing 6 x LS801P and 2 x ZV28, let's look at where the energy is. The 6 x LS801P do get extremely loud because they concentrate their energy over the range from 60 to 80Hz. This is what you might call a one-note-wonder. When you hit that one note, it's epic, but everything else is weak. And anything close to the one note comes out sounding like the same note. This is not a recipe for musical reproduction, it's a recipe for a big SPL number on a spec sheet. And speaking of their spec sheet, I measured an LS801P to achieve 132.2dB continuous so that's ~2dB lower than their claim. Using the same measurement method, the ZV28 delivered 132dB also, but the LS801P delivers 132dB at 70Hz, the ZV28 does it at 38Hz. That means that even though they show a similar number on the spec sheet, the ZV28 is displacing four times more air than the LS801P at that peak level. That's a difference you can feel!

York-LS801+2100-V-ZV28-at-MAX-2.jpg 
The 2 x ZV28s will put out an equal amount of energy to 6 x LS801P, but what the ZV28s do is they make that energy available over a wider range, delivering every note, including the very deepest ones, at the same level as every other note. The two ZV28s can deliver the same amount of energy at 30Hz that the six LS801Ps can at 60Hz. To put that another way, it would take six LS801Ps to be 3 times louder than than two ZV28s at 60Hz BUT it would take only two ZV28s to be three times louder than six LS801Ps at 30Hz.

York-LS801+2100-V-ZV28-at-MAX-2.jpg 

The kind of energy the ZV28s can deliver at 30Hz is something people just don't hear every day. It's a game-changer if you have it and your competitors don't. I believe it's far more impressive to have the entire venue literally breathing with the music than it is to have one note that assaults the audience once in a while. The ZV28s produce the kind of depth that makes you feel like you're IN the music, not just hearing it or feeling it hit you. You feel like it surrounds you and envelops you. It's a different experience, one that is surprisingly satisfying and, for lack of a better word, addictive.

On the other hand, if loud beats deep for you, there are a lot more choices on the market that will suit your needs. If you want subwoofers that really are SUB woofers, and you want to go where even a large pile of the cheap stuff just can't go, the ZV28 offers an unparalleled value. Yes, it's more money per box but it's way more deep-bass output per dollar. Plus you don't have to lug around nearly as much lumber.

And speaking of lumber, we use 18mm baltic birch. Yorkville uses 15mm. Probably to save weight. Instead of saving weight on the wood, we build with 18mm for the strength and we use neodymium magnets to save weight, which also serve to increase output due to the higher intensity magnetic fields they can create. Neodymium drivers are more expensive but can deliver 33% more acoustical output than a ceramic magnet on the same voice coil using the same power. In my opinion as the system designer, that's a better value.

So we've covered size and weight and sound quality and quantity. What about the power draw? The ZV28 amplifiers are extremely efficient, delivering over 95% of the input current draw to the speakers. Our amplifiers deliver flat frequency response to 5Hz and output power is specified as RMS at low frequencies, not burst power at 1kHz. Yorkville gives very little information about their amps but they list a program power of 1500W and a peak power of 2500W. Our 4000W is continuous sine wave RMS. Not that we would ever claim such a thing, but program power from a 4000W RMS amp is often quoted at 8,000W. But what does peak power mean to a subwoofer amplifier anyway? The peaks are no more than 8ms. That's one single cycle of about 125Hz.  That’s half of a cycle of 63Hz. That's one quarter of a cycle of 32Hz. And the test tone used for these burst tests is 1kHz, not 125Hz, so it's even easier to get a high rating. Comparing RMS @ 40Hz watts to EIA  @ 1kHz watts is like comparing apples to cranberries. They are both fruit. If I told you that they were roundish and reddish and you could have either one for $1.00 each, which one would be a better value?  

So that's higher output per cubic foot, higher output per pound, higher output per Amp from the socket. Higher quality based on the evenness of frequency response, musical reproduction and perception related to depth. Less gear to move, less cables to buy, put out and roll up. Less time in setup, less labor costs, less space and weight in the transport vehicle. Less competitors who can offer a similar sound.

When you go shopping for subs, are you shopping for boxes or are you shopping for bass? There are lots of options out there that will get you more boxes for $4,000.00. I don't know of any option that will deliver the quality and quantity of bass that the ZV28 does for $4295. And it's made in the USA!

The question of whether or not a horn loaded system is better than a vented system is another long answer. When we were BASSMAXX, we started out making horn loaded systems. Horn loaded loudspeakers are bigger, more complicated and more expensive to produce then vented or even bandpass enclosures.

There are three factors that limit a horn's performance. First is the length of the horn. The second is the area of the horn mouth. The third is the flare rate. When it comes to building compact systems, none of these factors work in your favor for low-frequency horns.

The second limitation can be overcome using multiple boxes to achieve a large enough cumulative radiating area but each and every enclosure must accommodate the physical path length of one quarter of the wavelength of the lowest frequency for which that loudspeaker system will be effective. For wavelengths close to 20 Hz, the wavelengths approach 56 feet and the necessary path length approaches 14 feet. No matter how you slice it, this will be a very big and complicated enclosure.

Thanks to the huge advancements in amplification and low frequency drivers we can now make excursions and deliver power sufficient to produce these wavelengths effectively from vented enclosures. When you're looking for a solution that reproduces low frequencies from a practical, transportable enclosure, vented direct radiators are the simplest and smallest and most cost-effective solution.

To put that another way, portable horns don't give you deeper bass. What they do is compensate for the inefficiencies of the drivers to which they are coupled. The result is that a horn loaded system requires less electrical energy in order to achieve an equivalent sound pressure level. This is a huge advantage if the limiting factor you face is related in someway to power, as in amplifiers or electrical supply current. This is not an advantage in terms of purchasing power or in terms of muscle power.

Let me know if there's anything I can clarify or extrapolate on.
Thanks,
David Lee
TexasSoundTech

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Reply with quote  #6 

Great explanation, David, and it wrapped up neatly my own thoughts and experiences of building bass boxes years ago for car subs. Getting an enclosure to be smooth across the lower end, and to still be "musical" was always the challenge because the interior of any vehicle doesn't allow enough room REALLY LOW freqs to happen. Bass boxes were nothing but the "one-note wonders." Today, as we drive down a street and pass/being passed by a vehicle with a box, all that is hear is BOOM with no real musical quality. SMH

The closest thing that ever came to getting some decent low to mid-bass were labyrinth-designed enclosures.

I realize I am hijacking this thread, but it brought back a lot of memories. [smile]

BASSBOSS - David Lee

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Reply with quote  #7 
Not a hijack at all - we intended this forum to be a place not only to ask questions but also for community discussion. I could go on for hours about this (and often do). Thanks for participating!

-David Lee

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Reply with quote  #8 

Yep, Lian said we'd end up geeking out [wink]

And I, too, am passionate about sound, and accurate reproduction, having an almost annoyingly OCD about it.

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Reply with quote  #9 
I resemble that remark! [biggrin]
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Reply with quote  #10 
OMG! That's my Line! LOL
burningdemons

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Reply with quote  #11 
Ah. That makes more sense. Lower hz means the woofer reproduces it at a slower rate? Or just the woofer moves slower to reproduce it, therefore more air is being displaced. I believe the 'kick' in the chest frequency is between 50-80hz, so the Yorkville's will produce more of that kind of thump by a significant amount. Different kinds of air displacement have different effects. Makes sense now. But overall the ZV28's are the best in that regard.

I did some math on the DBH218, this is the graph I came up with. I have added it to yours.

Danley Compared to 6 York Ls801 and 2 ZV28.png 

http://imageshack.com/a/img923/1593/lp0Ecr.png

Now, the DBH218 outputs as much as 2 ZV28's and it gets almost as loud as 6 LS801P's. Since the powered DBH218 would cost as much as 2 ZV28's, while weighing and being less cubic feet, would it not be the sole box the could keep up with the ZX5's? That was only at 1000 watts too. It can take 4000 but that will only add 4 more decibels (if that, given compression loss).

I believe my math is correct given that the Danley response graph is 93 db @ 20 hz with 1 watt (2.83V) and 1 meter in 1/2 space, 105 @ 30hz, 112 @ 40hz, and 115 @ 70hz. I tried to match the graph more closely to the one provided by Danley and it crescendos in the same peaks as the Yorkvilles. The air displacement of this single box will be more than 2 ZV28's and it will within barely noticeable SPL output as 6 Yorkville LS801P's. This is true unless Danley forged their numbers. This is, of course, a horn loaded enclosure. The path might have added weight but it is truly remarkable that it takes 4-6 of some dual 18" enclosures to equal the same SPL and displacement. Then you have the TH221 which has 103-105 db @ 20hz with 1 watt (2.83V) and 1 meter in 1/2 space. 110 @ 30hz with 1 watt (2.83V) and 1 meter... Then it fluctuates between 108-110 until 70hz where it is a massive 116, just like the DBH218. This, of course, removes the necessity for multiple cords and multiple trips and more felicitous usage of space. But twice as loud is 10db more and the TH221 would be twice as loud at 20hz and about 50% more loud at 30hz.

So my only question left is which would you suggest for my pair of ZX5's? The ZV28's? The DBH218? Or the TH221? The latter seems to have the most full sound, most displacement, but it's not the loudest for the least money. I believe the DBH218 is. A pair of LS1208's wouldn't be the worst choice either I guess. 105@70hz,105@60,105@50,104@45, and 101@40. Add 6db for a pair of them and that's 111@70, 111@60, 111@50, 110@45, and 107@40. You can buy 4 (you need to double the amount of speakers to add 6db I believe) and an amp for less than the ZV28 pair, 6 LS801P's, DBH218, or TH221.. So that's 117@70, 117@60, 116@45, and 113@40. That beats all of these other boxes mentioned but I don't know about under 40hz cause I don't have the graph. I presume it would drop off below 30 but still leave a respectable sensitivity at 30 that would compete or beat them for the price.. But, as you said, that's more cabs and more weight.

You have given me a great deal to think about. I appreciate all the information you have provided. I'm still curious as to which to go with though for my tops in a mobile setup (for school dances with 1000 people). I want to turn those high schoolers stomachs with bass they have never felt, you know? I want them to ask to have it turned down so I know I have the headroom to run them at full throttle if I wanted to.

Thanks again for your thorough response, I'm really eager to start building my own boxes now and see what sensitivities I could reach by capitalizing on greater efficiency and greater manipulation of physics to increase output in the areas I am curious of recreating.

burningdemons

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Reply with quote  #12 
Oops. Not more, slightly less. I meant the ZV28's will have slightly more displacement at the lower hz but overall the DBH218 will have more displacement because it is significantly more efficient at higher hz. I need to slow down, my brain and keyboard need to work together better. The TH221 will have way more displacement than the DBH218 or 2 ZV28's though, correct?
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Reply with quote  #13 
Just want to check that 2.83V @ 4 ohm load is 2 watts.
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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningdemons
Ah. That makes more sense. Lower hz means the woofer reproduces it at a slower rate? Or just the woofer moves slower to reproduce it, therefore more air is being displaced. I believe the 'kick' in the chest frequency is between 50-80hz, so the Yorkville's will produce more of that kind of thump by a significant amount. Different kinds of air displacement have different effects. Makes sense now. But overall the ZV28's are the best in that regard.

I did some math on the DBH218, this is the graph I came up with. I have added it to yours.

Danley Compared to 6 York Ls801 and 2 ZV28.png 

http://imageshack.com/a/img923/1593/lp0Ecr.png

Now, the DBH218 outputs as much as 2 ZV28's and it gets almost as loud as 6 LS801P's. Since the powered DBH218 would cost as much as 2 ZV28's, while weighing and being less cubic feet, would it not be the sole box the could keep up with the ZX5's? That was only at 1000 watts too. It can take 4000 but that will only add 4 more decibels (if that, given compression loss).

I believe my math is correct given that the Danley response graph is 93 db @ 20 hz with 1 watt (2.83V) and 1 meter in 1/2 space, 105 @ 30hz, 112 @ 40hz, and 115 @ 70hz. I tried to match the graph more closely to the one provided by Danley and it crescendos in the same peaks as the Yorkvilles. The air displacement of this single box will be more than 2 ZV28's and it will within barely noticeable SPL output as 6 Yorkville LS801P's. This is true unless Danley forged their numbers. This is, of course, a horn loaded enclosure. The path might have added weight but it is truly remarkable that it takes 4-6 of some dual 18" enclosures to equal the same SPL and displacement. Then you have the TH221 which has 103-105 db @ 20hz with 1 watt (2.83V) and 1 meter in 1/2 space. 110 @ 30hz with 1 watt (2.83V) and 1 meter... Then it fluctuates between 108-110 until 70hz where it is a massive 116, just like the DBH218. This, of course, removes the necessity for multiple cords and multiple trips and more felicitous usage of space. But twice as loud is 10db more and the TH221 would be twice as loud at 20hz and about 50% more loud at 30hz.

So my only question left is which would you suggest for my pair of ZX5's? The ZV28's? The DBH218? Or the TH221? The latter seems to have the most full sound, most displacement, but it's not the loudest for the least money. I believe the DBH218 is. A pair of LS1208's wouldn't be the worst choice either I guess. 105@70hz,105@60,105@50,104@45, and 101@40. Add 6db for a pair of them and that's 111@70, 111@60, 111@50, 110@45, and 107@40. You can buy 4 (you need to double the amount of speakers to add 6db I believe) and an amp for less than the ZV28 pair, 6 LS801P's, DBH218, or TH221.. So that's 117@70, 117@60, 116@45, and 113@40. That beats all of these other boxes mentioned but I don't know about under 40hz cause I don't have the graph. I presume it would drop off below 30 but still leave a respectable sensitivity at 30 that would compete or beat them for the price.. But, as you said, that's more cabs and more weight.

You have given me a great deal to think about. I appreciate all the information you have provided. I'm still curious as to which to go with though for my tops in a mobile setup (for school dances with 1000 people). I want to turn those high schoolers stomachs with bass they have never felt, you know? I want them to ask to have it turned down so I know I have the headroom to run them at full throttle if I wanted to.

Thanks again for your thorough response, I'm really eager to start building my own boxes now and see what sensitivities I could reach by capitalizing on greater efficiency and greater manipulation of physics to increase output in the areas I am curious of recreating.


2.83v at 4 ohm is 2 watt, should have used 2.00v. DBH218 has a switch either 2 or 4 ohm load.
burningdemons

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Originally Posted by Djonyx
2.83v at 4 ohm is 2 watt, should have used 2.00v. DBH218 has a switch either 2 or 4 ohm load.


I didn't pay attention to what the ohm load was on their sheets. You're probably correct but in either case, the DBH218 can take 3,600 continuous wattage. So even if it was a 2 ohm load, that graph should look similar to its actual performance in the real world. Its peak is a massive 14,400 watts so it should be able to take 4,000 continuous. And it'll take 2,000 with ease. So if it was done in a 4 ohm load you just double the wattage I wrote and quadruple if it was done in a 2 ohm. The only that would remain to be corrected is the extra 3-4db that would not be there.

Strangely the TH221 takes less wattage than the DBH but it doesn't matter that much. Once you get past a thousand watts, it'll take 5-10 times that much power before you start getting noticeable increases in SPL. So the differences between a 2 ohm, 4 ohm, or 8 ohm load won't matter significantly in the real world.
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